Listen to God\’s Voice

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Hagee not a Fundamentalist?

On the basis of this article I have some comments to make about John Hagee. He is a traitor to the Christian faith, once delivered unto the saints. He claims to not be a fundamentalist and then goes on to set up a straw man as a fundamentalist. He knocks down the snake handlers laughling claiming that they are fundamentalists. Goes on further and claims to believe the bible and practice it. Meaning he takes the bible literally when it is to his advantage. I would like to select out of this article several quotes and then comment on them. This includes a comment out of the editors notes. You can read the full article by clicking here. It is not my intention here to ride piggy back on anyones answers, but to point out inconsistencies with the Historical Christian Faith. The title of the article is intact below.

Christian Zionist Leader Hagee in Unprecedented Appearance at Reform Temple

Editor’s note: ” Hagee is also controversial for slurs against Catholicism (noted recently when he endorsed John McCain), Islam, gays — even Reform and Conservative Jews. Hagee/CUFI hold “Nights to Honor Israel” in cities around the country, usually at Christian churches.”

By Robin Podolsky, March 17, 2008. Special to JewsOnFirst.org

“On Tuesday, March 11, the Reverend John C. Hagee spoke as a guest at Stephen S. Wise, a Reform Temple in West Los Angeles (Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

This kind of strikes me strange, that he did not use this choice opportunity to present the claims of the Messiah? I imagine that also kind of perplexed this reformed Jewish congregation as well. This was toted as a dialog, which to me gave him the right to inject into his part of this dialog the claims of the Messiah Jesus (Christ Jesus is Messiah Savior). Again he missed one of those golden opportunities. The Lord Jesus Christ used His opportunities to press his claims when He spoke to His people in their synagogues, now why should not Hagee use the same opportunity? This brings another area of quandary to the fore front, it seems that Hagee has multiple gospels, one for the gentiles and one for the Jews, oh! Jews that have faith, even though it is not faith in the finished work of their Messiah. He even goes so far as to claim Jesus forsook His being the Messiah. He needs to read his bible just a little more closely, news flash Jesus was the Messiah and accepted it fully. He was rejected by the Jewish religious leaders of His day.

“When asked to identify himself theologically, Reverend Hagee said that he is Evangelical, which means that he “reads scripture” and then simply “does it.” He said that he is not fundamentalist, because he does not wish to be identified with the sort of people who handle snakes. (This was not the only time when Reverend Hagee appeared to cater to a prejudice that he expected his audience to share. At one point, he invited the mixed audience of Jews and evangelicals to commiserate with the difficulties of winning Texas “rednecks” to the task of combating anti-Semitism; he also described a rushed, hurried prayer as being like that of “a Presbyterian late for lunch.”) (Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

Hagee claims to be an evangelical and not a Fundamentalist. He states that an evangelical is one who ‘”reads scripture and then simply “does it.” Two interesting things about this statement, that strikes me as being a little off base, OK a lot of base, he has not defined what an evangelical is, only what an evangelical does. Wheaton College gives a good definition as to what an evangelical is and it seems to me that the snake handlers fit in better with the evangelicals then with Fundamentalists.

Defining Evangelicalism

“The term “Evangelicalism” is a wide-reaching definitional “canopy” that covers a diverse number of Protestant groups. The term originates in the Greek word evangelion, meaning “the good news,” or, more commonly, the “gospel.” During the Reformation, Martin Luther adapted the Greek term, dubbing his breakaway movement the evangelische kirke, or “evangelical church”-a name still generally applied to the Lutheran Church in Germany.In the English-speaking world, however, the modern usage usually connotes the religious movements and denominations which sprung forth from a series of revivals that swept the North Atlantic Anglo-American world in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. Key figures associated with these revivals included the itinerant English evangelist George Whitefield (1715-1770); the founder of Methodism John Wesley (1703-1791) ; and, the American philosopher and theologian, Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758). These revivals were particularly responsible for the rise of the Baptists and Methodists from obscure sects to their traditional position as America’s two largest Protestant denominational families.(Wheaton College)”

Then he carried his form of prejudice one step further by “equating red necks of Texas” as being in need of conversion to his form of supporting the state of Israel. In the same breath here he is implying that Fundamentalists are ignorant fools, because we supposedly do not support the state of Israel. Finally, what does a hurried prayer have to do with “a Presbyterian late for lunch”. Some of his metaphors are very confusing, but the drift is he is trying to appease an audience, rather then stand for the truth.

Which brings me to the obvious question, if this is what an evangelical is, then what is a Fundamentalist? Cutting Edge gives this definition of what a Christian Fundamentalist is:

“….Fundamentalism, however, has never been and never could be limited to the affirmations of any particular denomination. The Fundamentals of Fellowship transcend denominational distinctives, and they do so without weakening or compromising such distinctives. For example, Fundamentalists have always been good Presbyterians or good Baptists and still able to fellowship with Fundamentalists of other groups. While Fundamentalists certainly do differ among themselves on certain interpretations of Scripture, they unite in fellowship and “common purpose for the defense of the Faith and the preaching of the Gospel,” accepting the Bible alone, without question, as the divinely and verbally inspired, inerrant, and authoritative Word of God.” (Emphasis in the original).(Cutting Edge)”

This definition of what a Fundamentalist really is does not bare any resemblance to the snake handlers of John Hagee. This is the worst kind of mis-information in an era of mis-information. The sad thing is that Hagee and others get away with this pandering confusing type of thinking. What ends up happening is they listen to men like Hagee and then when they run into a real Fundamentalist, such as myself, they thing we are snake handlers. A person who supposedly represents the Christian community (which Hagee doesn’t represent all of the Christian community) they automatically think we handle snakes. This is full of a very devastating effect on the nature of truth and how we know it (epistemology). The Bible is truth with out any admixture of error and is authoritative in all matters of faith and practice. This includes everything from Genesis to Revelation, if Hagee really did understand what a Fundamentalist is he would have taken a strong stand for what we believe.

Not understanding what is at the basis of the Fundamentalist controversy is very obvious, but this ignorance on the part of Hagee is devastating. He has single handily (maybe not so much single handily) placed Fundamentalists on the defensive. As far as this Christian writer is concerned I stand separated from the likes of John Hagee, but am still standing on the firm ground of faith in the scriptures as our only rule for faith and practice. The scriptures are verbally and plenarly inspired, being without error in their original manuscripts.

“When Rabbi Woznica asked the Reverend if he was a literalist, he said that he was and that he did believe that the world was really created in six days and that Noah’s ark was real. On the other hand, in response to a follow-up question from Rabbi Woznica, Reverend Hagee said that he does not believe a Sabbath-breaker ought to be stoned to death, referring to Biblical laws as ‘word pictures’ that indicate ‘principles.’ Pressed further, Hagee said that he takes stories of miracles literally and that his belief in God as all-powerful and all-knowing has ‘never’ been shaken.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

Now this is real confusing, Hagee says he is a literalist and believes in the biblical doctrine of Creation, but he is not a Fundamentalist? These are issues that Fundamentalist will stand up for, the issues that are of concern to Fundamentalists are wrapped up in the question of the integrity of the Scriptures. The whole set of arguments that came out of old German liberalism set in question the reliability of the scriptures. It was these issues that the old Fundamentalists (as well as this one) stood against and wrote extensively about. For instance of those men in that generation there was G. Gresham Machen, who wrote The Virgin Birth of Christ a biblical defense of the virgin birth from the scriptures. Hagee is apparently unable to defend the scriptures from attack, because he does not even understand the arguments.

Now I do not get it, is he denying that the law of Moses did not prescribe the death sentence for Sabbath breaking? If that is the case he is not really ignorant, just sadly a deadhead. He says he reads the scriptures and applies the truths, but it is obvious in this case that is not true here. If he is clarifying how the scriptures apply to life today, he is not real clear as to how that is done. “Word Pictures”, or “principles” means absolutely nothing if you do not understand what was meant in its context. What he is missing is how God felt and feels about those who violate His law. In fact it was so serious to violate the law of Moses on the issue of the Sabbath, that the punishment for so doing was death. Which, opens up a whole lot of other issues, such as the first two commandments. There is only one true God and all others are idols. This makes worship very specific, worshiping God, must have scriptural content and that means that anyone that attempts to worship any other way is not worshiping God. This means that only Christians can really worship God, because in the church age the gospel has been entrusted to Christians. The Jews, Muslims, Catholics do not worship the only true God, but one that man has defined.

“Rabbi Woznica pressed the point in reference to Reverend Hagee’s famous remark that Hurricane Katrina can be best understood as God’s punishment for sin, homosexuality in particular. Hagee didn’t answer directly but responded with a précis of the blessings and curses described in Deuteronomy as the recompense for obedience or sin. He then went on to say that when a tragedy occurs, “you don’t know that day if it is a tragedy,” re-telling the story of Joseph who thought he was having a bad day when his brothers sold him into slavery and who later realized that the series of events leading to his position of leadership in Egypt represented the work of God on behalf of his entire people.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

I do not blame the Rabbi for pressing the point, it is obvious that Hagee does not have the nerve to back up his statements. If he is unable to give any proof to the truth of his statements, then he has no business making the statement in the first place. Most certainly Hurricane Katrina was a part of the judgement of God, but not any more then any other disasters have been historically. It can be seen in scripture the relationship between disasters, such as Sodom and Gomorrah, and how God has dealt with a sinful mankind. However, it is not a prudent idea to make a statement such as he has when there are so many others that need to be made. I can not understand why he failed to confront the Jewish People with the sin of their disobedience from the point of Sinai to the death of Christ. I do not hold that the Jewish people alone were responsible for the Crucifixion anymore then Pilot was. It took Jews and Gentiles to put the Messiah to death. It took God to bring Him back to life literally. It is obvious from reading him that Hagee does not believe in the sovereignty of God.

“Then the tone of the conversation changed abruptly. Rabbi Woznica asked the Revered if we are always obliged “to forgive.” Hagee said that we are only obliged to forgive in response to a promise of changed behavior, because to forgive without a promise of different conduct is to “make the grace of God an accomplice to evil.” The Reverend went on to remind us of the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman-Jesus, whom Hagee described as a “Reform Rabbi” (!) rescued from the crowd “of Pharisees” about to stone her and told her to “go and sin no more.” The point being that the woman was forgiven, but not without conditions.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

This one makes me laugh, this is the exact same question that the temple authorities asked Christ. They were constantly trying to trip Him up with questions that they thought would cause Him to make a mistake so they could jump on Him about it. This is exactly what happened in Matthew 18:21-22, I include it here so you can see how wrong Hagee is: (Mat 18:21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? (Mat 18:22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Where in this scripture does Jesus make a condition of forgiveness only when their is changed behavior? I will tell you it does not make even remotely one condition such as Hagee describes. We are to forgive as many times as it takes and permanently if necessary.

“Support of Israel?
Reverend Hagee said that he wished the audience to understand that his work “in support of Israel” was not aimed at conversion of Jews to Christianity. He then expressed irritation at being asked if his work with Christians United For Israel (CUFI, which Hagee heads) had to do with the Apocalypse. He said, “Only a moron would ask a question like that.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

He had the Gall to say “Only a moron would ask a question like that.” When in another mans house you do not call him a moron when he asks the question. He only said that to avoid having to answer the question. The answer is simple Israel will come corporately to God in His time, that is God’s time. The Apocalypse is now closer at hand then it has ever been before. Should Christians sit back and refuse to support Israel, because it might be trying to grease the wheel? Hagee you were invited so you should have told them the truth, now they have no idea of what an evangelical Christian believes let alone a Fundamentalist.

Rabbi Woznica smiled and said that the question had been “on his list.” However, perhaps because he was uncomfortable at the possibility of his guest calling him a moron or because he was distracted with other questions, he never returned to the issue again.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

I feel for the Rabbi and I do not blame him for not returning to this question, he should have called Hagee on this one, if for the sake of the ignorance of Hagee

“Therefore, the audience never got a chance to hear what the Reverend would have said if someone had asked him to explain his dismissal, in advance, of any discussion of the Apocalypse in the context of the discussion that followed.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

I am going to take these two sections to gether one point at a time:

“At one point, Reverend Hagee said that, following the example of his father, also a minister, he regards the founding of the State of Israel to be the most important event of the 20th Century-because this ‘in-gathering’ is a necessary prelude to the rebuilding of the Temple, the battle of Armageddon and revelation of the Messiah, whom Hagee believes to be Jesus Christ. At the sight of the Messiah, the “remnant” of the Jews who would be left after the Armageddon struggle (Hagee coyly observed that while, remnant sounds bad, “we don’t actually know how big a remnant is”) would “weep at the sight of the one whose side they (!) had pierced.” This account is absolutely at odds with Hagee’s earlier statement that it is wrong to interpret the Christian Bible to suggest that the Jews killed Jesus, because that killing was actually a “Roman conspiracy.” Rabbi Woznica, doing his game best to follow the argument, did not interrupt to point out this inconsistency.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

What kind of gets me wondering is that Hagee is unaware of what he has said? He changes his doctrinal beliefs so quickly that it gets hard to follow him. First he says that all Jews are going to be saved, because Jesus had saved them whether they like it or not. Then he talks about a very real remenant that is described in detail in the book of Revelation, written by a Jews mind you. His making the killing of Christ solely a Roman thing, ignores the strong evidence in the gospels for the involvement of the leaders of the Jews. There is no evidence that the Crucifixion was a “Roman conspiracy”, but their is evidence that there was a Jewish temple leadership conspiracy. Does that mean all Jews are responsible for the death of Christ? No they are not, remember we are talking about a historical event during Jewish times. Conspiracy aside were the Romans also responsible, yes they were, they did the actual Crucifixion. My answer is that it took Jews and Gentiles to put the savior to death.

“To this Reform audience, Hagee insisted that CUFI is a ‘one-issue’ organization that does nothing but “support Israel,” sending out lobbying brigades to Congress with focused talking points on that subject alone. But he was never asked how, in light of his belief that the War of Armageddon is necessary to the chain of events that will bring on the world to come, such a belief colors his notion of what “support” for Israel means. (The Rabbi admitted that he has not read Hagee’s book, Jerusalem Countdown, and asked Reverend Hagee to send him a copy.)(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

I salute the Rabbi if he reads this book after being called a moron! I think that the moron was probably Hagee. If I understand prophecy well, nothing that we do on this side of the Rapture will have any effect on what is going to come down on the other side. This means that the only effect will be the same type that occurred between the end of the dispensation of law and the start of the dispensation of grace. Certainly there will probably be some overlapping. That is some things that happened before will have lasting results.

‘Christian right leaders on CUFI’s board
Hagee also has, on the Board of CUFI, assembled the most socially right wing Christian ministers, who are working, actively, to re-brand the United States as a Christian nation. Hagee was never asked how, if he believes that the removal of Jews from the United States to Israel is an eschatological necessity and, if he is working to turn our constitutional democracy into a Christian nation, what he thinks the role of Jews as US citizens ought to be.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”

This point here is debated among students of end time eschatology, but the bottom line is the anti-Christ will line up to defend Israel and make a compact to give Israel 7 years of peace. The peace will be broken mid way thru the 7 years. This the way the scriptures lay it out, but there is a lot of detail that is not covered in scripture.

“He admitted that the Crusaders were “liars, murderers, rapists and thieves;” that Jews were tortured during the Inquisition; that the perpetrators of the Holocaust were, for the most part “baptized Christians in good standing within their congregations.” He admitted the anti-Jewish screed of Martin Luther. (And, no, he was never asked to explain his remark that the Catholic Church is a “whore.”) Hagee said it was time that Christians acknowledged the anti-Judaism that has run through Christian history and “asked forgiveness.(Podolsky, JewsOnFirst.org)”‘

Finally the last point here is that Hagee does one good thing he admits that persecution of the Jewish people has been going on for a long time. I have a hard time believing that the so called baptised Christians in good standing within their congregations were good Christians. Hagee needs to do some reading about what Hitler did to the churches in Germany. I am not going to cover it here, but may do so later. Needless to say, the churches in Germany were under the thumb of the Nazi’s. It is time to admit that many wrong things have been done to the Jewish people over the last 2,000 years. However, there is also the long line of Baptist believers stretching back to the New Testament who were also treated to cruelty and death. The Jewish people were not by their selves in this area, Rome is indeed a whore and she has wrecked her havoc on many peoples. Ultimately she is going to be dragged to Judgement in front of our very sovereign God to give answer to HIM. I await the day when I do get to see my savior face to face and meet my Jewish friends who have proceeded me there. Yes there is such a thing as a Jewish Christian, for one thing Jesus was Jewish as were all the apostles. God bless

All of the quotes are from this article.

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Written by tfheringer

June 11, 2008 at 11:30 pm

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